Health testing and Information
Why should breeders of dogs do health testing? If we can health test the parents of our puppies, we can guide which stud mates which bitch so as the puppies are not poorly from inherited conditions. Some tests are DNA, some are x-rays, others are visual tests.
Health tests are a tool for us to avoid problems. Considering how many health issues could effect dogs, we have relative very few available.
Each year that goes by their becomes new health tests which become available. Not all breeders will do them. I would ask to see the documents of the parents when you visit the puppy. If a breeder can not produce the certificates, then I would walk away. Their is no excuse not to have these available for you to see them.
Some health tests you can find on the Kennel club website, by putting the dogs pedigree name in. But since Covid 19 the BVA didnt score the x-rays. This caused a huge back log. We all turned to Australia who said from receipt of X-rays is 24=48 hours. The BVA is currently 12 weeks.
PLEASE NOTE
Health tests are a tool for us to avoid problems. Considering how many health issues could effect dogs, we have relative very few available.
Each year that goes by their becomes new health tests which become available. Not all breeders will do them. I would ask to see the documents of the parents when you visit the puppy. If a breeder can not produce the certificates, then I would walk away. Their is no excuse not to have these available for you to see them.
Some health tests you can find on the Kennel club website, by putting the dogs pedigree name in. But since Covid 19 the BVA didnt score the x-rays. This caused a huge back log. We all turned to Australia who said from receipt of X-rays is 24=48 hours. The BVA is currently 12 weeks.
PLEASE NOTE
The health tests we have done on our own dogs is not public. Therefore we have had dogs hip scored and BVA elbow scored but info is sent to Australia instead. So these tests are available to see on our files.
What tests are Kennel club required?
Hungarian Vizsla, Hips, Elbows, BVA eye test, BVA glaucoma test.
Weimaraner Hips
Bracco Italiano - None
French bulldog - BOAS, HC
Pugs - Boas
What tests are Kennel club required?
Hungarian Vizsla, Hips, Elbows, BVA eye test, BVA glaucoma test.
Weimaraner Hips
Bracco Italiano - None
French bulldog - BOAS, HC
Pugs - Boas
Health tests and information
We health test all our dogs of any breed we own. I do feel lots of people mis interpret health tests, so I hope this page will help those of you that do not quite understand the reason of health testing, why we do them, and what they mean.
Firstly a health test is for the breeders records and they are a tool for us to avoid inherited conditions in animals. Their are relatively few health tests for each breed available. But most aren't even recorded with the Kennel club of Great Britain. So these then become private health tests which the breeder holds on record and their is no online record of them being done. They are only recorded with the Kennel club if its a kennel club required test. You can submit the health tests to the Kennel club, but they are held on private file only.
When you go and visit your puppy, or pick a puppy up, ask to see copies of the health tests. Remember do not accept excuses why health tests aren't to view. We have all ours in a file for people to look through.
The Kennel club required test for Hungarian Vizsla is Hip scoring and glaucoma testing.
The Kennel club required test for Pugs is Boas and PDE.
The Kennel club required test for Bracco Italiano is nothing.
The Kennel club require Hip scoring for Weimaraners.
The Kennel club required test for French bulldogs is Hereditary Cateracts, BVA eye testing, from Jan 2021 Boas. They have dropped Degenerative myopathy.
Now when I say a required test what does this mean? It is for assured breeders only. Anyone can still register a dog of any breed with no health tests and get registration papers. So although you've just brought a pedigree dog with kennel club papers, it does not mean the parents had any health tests.
Let me try to persuade you to only buy a puppy from parents who have had health tests done. Why is this? Because it could save your £'s in the long term, it can also save your dog from being in pain for many years to come. But I stress the tests available to breeders are relatively few, but all breeders should do what is available regardless.
No-one has a health test for cancers. Cancers are on the increase in all breeds of dogs including pedigree dogs. But remember it is also on the increase in human beings as well. I have written other pages on cancers and the triggers.
DNA tests and what results mean to you, if we work in 1 in 4.
If you mate a clear to a clear you can only get clear puppies.
If you mate a clear to a carrier you will get clear puppies.
If you mate a carrier to a carrier you will get 1 clear puppy, 2 carriers, 1 effected.
If you mate a effected to effected you will get 4 puppies effected.
The twist to all of the above is although we have said 1 in 4, in fact it could be 1 in 1000 according to my scientist son in law that did genetics. This is why for many generations something will not appear, then by luck of the gods it can do such as hip dysplasia.
If you are buying a puppy to breed from in the future knowing their status of the health test is important because you will need to know if your dog is a carrier. So ideally you want a puppy from a clear to clear mating or a carrier to clear mating. You do not want an effected to effected, or carrier to carrier. If you have fallen in love with a puppy and it comes from a carrier to carrier mating then you should dna test the puppy in the breeders home first which will give you the result as you do not want to purchase an effected puppy. If it is a carrier you just mate to a clear.
Now why do we mate clears to clears, and carriers to clears? Simply because the gene pool in the UK is not large enough in pedigree dogs and by reducing the gene pool we could increase epilepsy and many many other health problems, as the gene pool just got small. So its very important to use carriers in our breeding programs and not ignore them. Its no good eradicating one disease to introduce ten others. This happened in a breed in the uk and the breed club advised all breeders only mate to clears, and suddenly the gene pool got so small that they then introduced many many more dogs with epilepsy and other health problems. So we need to understand our tests and use them as tools. A carrier will not suddenly turn into effected, so owning one you would never know it has a gene to produce say PDE if put to another PDE carrier.
Are cross breeds in fact healthier? Sorry no they are not. Because many cross breeders do not do the relevant health test for each dog they use. So the parents may not of been health tested. Their are many cross breeders however who now will health test each parent before breeding. For example if you put two different breeds together but both carry for example PRA then they could produce it in the pups. Do cross breeds in fact have cancer? Yes of course they do.
Now dna tests for health is not the same as dna for colour. So when you see adverts bragging their dog carries quad, tan etc. These are NOT health tests. They are saying their dog genetically can throw all these weird colours that are not recognised for the breed standard. Which actually means not full pedigree. So a cross breed sold as pedigree. So be warned its not all as you think when you read adverts.
What does a breed average mean? It simply means out of 1000 dogs health tested, its the average score from all those dogs, which is not always accurate. For example if only 2 dogs are health tested in a year as its a test not done by that breed, the score could be high, but still normal. As we found out in Pugs. What is important is knowing the generations behind, and knowing and understanding that an even score is actually more important than a low score one side and high the other. A breed average score can change over the years as more dogs are scored. For example I remember when Vizsla were 15.
Now many of us got tired of waiting for results from BVA in London during covid we all sent our X-rays to America or Australia. The BVA are now concerned that the breed average wont be the same in the future as they are loosing health data now.
Some tests are new and data being collected for the future. For example BOAS in Pugs and French bulldogs. This test can be interpreted by one vet to be 1 result yet another vet could say something completely different. So it is not categorically correct....YET.! This is so new that they are years away from really discovering the cause of this. For example for years they thought flat faces were the cause, not questions as to this may not be the case. In another ten years the data will then hopefully be making a difference to those dog breeds.
Can the Kennel club refuse registration? No they cant or wont. The only time would be if you mated a mother and son together or a daughter and father. Or if you mate your bitch twice in 12 month period, then they could say no, but often they register them.
Can results be false ? Some yes they can because with some dna tests it means that the dog is unlikely to get the health issue, so it could go through life fine, then get it. But it is unlikely too. You can mate a higher hip score dog to a lower score and get all good scores. Eye tests which are visual can change. Then we have vets who are hip scoring or elbow scoring, and the bva are scoring wrongly. Or putting on points which other vets wouldn’t do. Pushing the scores up higher. So it can be down to interpretation.
Some dogs with health tests on the higher side, produce offspring low. So a lot of the tests are inaccurate.
You have to trust your breeder that they know what they are doing, but sadly today it seems many people setting up breeding dont have a clue about health tests. I read just today where a woman is mating her dog, but wont bother with hip scores because she wont put her dog under for hip scoring. She is being silly because you can find vets that sedate only, and if her bitch has to have a c section then it will have a GA so she should hip score her bitch. I also read I’m not a breeder so I haven’t done the health tests. Yet bred the dog, so if you have just 1 litter lets make it clear you are a breeder. Stop skirting around words so you do not get yourself a license, and you must submit a tax return. Another lady bred her frenchie and was selling them on social media, but not a single health test done. But charging 5000 a puppy. That price is higher than someone who is doing it right and health testing.
Remember health tests are a tool for the breeder.
CO EFFICIENCY
What is COI? It is an abbreviation for the word Co efficiency. Which basically means how in bred is your dog. Now we have a current trend mostly in Hungarian Vizsla that breeders are using the word COI as a sales point of view. These are usually from very inexperienced breeders. If you want the lowest coi then go and buy a poodle crossed a cocker spaniel. Because all pedigree dogs will come from the same relatives. It is what creates a pedigree dog, its type, its size, its head shape, its colour. It doesn't however mean you will have a healthier dog. This is wrongly being promoted to state your dog wont have any health conditions. UTTER RUBBISH! You can put two healthy dogs together having the lowest coi, but they can in fact me more unhealthy than a line bred litter. Why is this? You have dog A, which is not related to dog B. Both dog A and dog B both carry epilepsy, or auto immune, or hip dysplasia. You've just put dog A to dog B and those genes decided to come together in the creation of puppy C and hey presto an unhealthy dog. Dogs have upon thousands of genes in their make up. It is just what comes together for the creation of that puppy.
in all the years ive outcrossed, ive seen more health issues appear for no reason, than when we line bred. Two healthy line bred individuals will not produce health problems. It is safer to breed those than the dogs with a lower COI.
The old saying used to be before all these DNA tests and so on. Out cross the once, then go back into your line again, other wise you will lose type of the pedigree dog your trying to create. As you end up with Great Dane sized Vizsla, and tiny Vizsla all in one litter.
Defra have concluded that a dog is safe to breed up to 11.5 % coi.
The Kennel club have concluded that you can still register pups up to 20 coi. Even though they are the ones who have put online the breed average COI for each breed. They will register high coi no problem. I would never suggest anyone in bred a litter, unless an absolute mistake and they didn't want an abortion of the litter. I have come across breeders who are anti abortion and if they feel that strongly then that entirely up to them. But no-one these days sets out to breed mother and son together.
To throw another spanner in the works, on record with the kennel club the coi is not accurate at all, and when you import a dog they do not hold the names on the database and their coi is incorrect.
I am little unsure at the moment why this is being used as a sales pitch. The public who do not understand a word of it, then ring up breeders asking for coi of 1%. I suppose its a clever sales pitch to make it seem you have something more special than another breeder. Pedigree dogs all come from the same bloodlines originally, yes other breeds were added to give diversity, but they created in essence our pedigree dogs. In many breeds of dogs in the UK their is not enough of a gene pool to keep outcrossing. You can import dogs but heck........you can end up with something far worse that you never had in your blood lines in the first place.
The one thing I have learnt in the UK is actually we have small gene pools for many dog breeds. Even if we choose dogs from Europe we still have a small gene pool. The world is a smaller place these days where dog breeds are concerned as we have options to import. But it still doesn't get away from the fact that all pedigree dogs come from the same parents initially.
I would suggest everything should be with in balance.
Firstly a health test is for the breeders records and they are a tool for us to avoid inherited conditions in animals. Their are relatively few health tests for each breed available. But most aren't even recorded with the Kennel club of Great Britain. So these then become private health tests which the breeder holds on record and their is no online record of them being done. They are only recorded with the Kennel club if its a kennel club required test. You can submit the health tests to the Kennel club, but they are held on private file only.
When you go and visit your puppy, or pick a puppy up, ask to see copies of the health tests. Remember do not accept excuses why health tests aren't to view. We have all ours in a file for people to look through.
The Kennel club required test for Hungarian Vizsla is Hip scoring and glaucoma testing.
The Kennel club required test for Pugs is Boas and PDE.
The Kennel club required test for Bracco Italiano is nothing.
The Kennel club require Hip scoring for Weimaraners.
The Kennel club required test for French bulldogs is Hereditary Cateracts, BVA eye testing, from Jan 2021 Boas. They have dropped Degenerative myopathy.
Now when I say a required test what does this mean? It is for assured breeders only. Anyone can still register a dog of any breed with no health tests and get registration papers. So although you've just brought a pedigree dog with kennel club papers, it does not mean the parents had any health tests.
Let me try to persuade you to only buy a puppy from parents who have had health tests done. Why is this? Because it could save your £'s in the long term, it can also save your dog from being in pain for many years to come. But I stress the tests available to breeders are relatively few, but all breeders should do what is available regardless.
No-one has a health test for cancers. Cancers are on the increase in all breeds of dogs including pedigree dogs. But remember it is also on the increase in human beings as well. I have written other pages on cancers and the triggers.
DNA tests and what results mean to you, if we work in 1 in 4.
If you mate a clear to a clear you can only get clear puppies.
If you mate a clear to a carrier you will get clear puppies.
If you mate a carrier to a carrier you will get 1 clear puppy, 2 carriers, 1 effected.
If you mate a effected to effected you will get 4 puppies effected.
The twist to all of the above is although we have said 1 in 4, in fact it could be 1 in 1000 according to my scientist son in law that did genetics. This is why for many generations something will not appear, then by luck of the gods it can do such as hip dysplasia.
If you are buying a puppy to breed from in the future knowing their status of the health test is important because you will need to know if your dog is a carrier. So ideally you want a puppy from a clear to clear mating or a carrier to clear mating. You do not want an effected to effected, or carrier to carrier. If you have fallen in love with a puppy and it comes from a carrier to carrier mating then you should dna test the puppy in the breeders home first which will give you the result as you do not want to purchase an effected puppy. If it is a carrier you just mate to a clear.
Now why do we mate clears to clears, and carriers to clears? Simply because the gene pool in the UK is not large enough in pedigree dogs and by reducing the gene pool we could increase epilepsy and many many other health problems, as the gene pool just got small. So its very important to use carriers in our breeding programs and not ignore them. Its no good eradicating one disease to introduce ten others. This happened in a breed in the uk and the breed club advised all breeders only mate to clears, and suddenly the gene pool got so small that they then introduced many many more dogs with epilepsy and other health problems. So we need to understand our tests and use them as tools. A carrier will not suddenly turn into effected, so owning one you would never know it has a gene to produce say PDE if put to another PDE carrier.
Are cross breeds in fact healthier? Sorry no they are not. Because many cross breeders do not do the relevant health test for each dog they use. So the parents may not of been health tested. Their are many cross breeders however who now will health test each parent before breeding. For example if you put two different breeds together but both carry for example PRA then they could produce it in the pups. Do cross breeds in fact have cancer? Yes of course they do.
Now dna tests for health is not the same as dna for colour. So when you see adverts bragging their dog carries quad, tan etc. These are NOT health tests. They are saying their dog genetically can throw all these weird colours that are not recognised for the breed standard. Which actually means not full pedigree. So a cross breed sold as pedigree. So be warned its not all as you think when you read adverts.
What does a breed average mean? It simply means out of 1000 dogs health tested, its the average score from all those dogs, which is not always accurate. For example if only 2 dogs are health tested in a year as its a test not done by that breed, the score could be high, but still normal. As we found out in Pugs. What is important is knowing the generations behind, and knowing and understanding that an even score is actually more important than a low score one side and high the other. A breed average score can change over the years as more dogs are scored. For example I remember when Vizsla were 15.
Now many of us got tired of waiting for results from BVA in London during covid we all sent our X-rays to America or Australia. The BVA are now concerned that the breed average wont be the same in the future as they are loosing health data now.
Some tests are new and data being collected for the future. For example BOAS in Pugs and French bulldogs. This test can be interpreted by one vet to be 1 result yet another vet could say something completely different. So it is not categorically correct....YET.! This is so new that they are years away from really discovering the cause of this. For example for years they thought flat faces were the cause, not questions as to this may not be the case. In another ten years the data will then hopefully be making a difference to those dog breeds.
Can the Kennel club refuse registration? No they cant or wont. The only time would be if you mated a mother and son together or a daughter and father. Or if you mate your bitch twice in 12 month period, then they could say no, but often they register them.
Can results be false ? Some yes they can because with some dna tests it means that the dog is unlikely to get the health issue, so it could go through life fine, then get it. But it is unlikely too. You can mate a higher hip score dog to a lower score and get all good scores. Eye tests which are visual can change. Then we have vets who are hip scoring or elbow scoring, and the bva are scoring wrongly. Or putting on points which other vets wouldn’t do. Pushing the scores up higher. So it can be down to interpretation.
Some dogs with health tests on the higher side, produce offspring low. So a lot of the tests are inaccurate.
You have to trust your breeder that they know what they are doing, but sadly today it seems many people setting up breeding dont have a clue about health tests. I read just today where a woman is mating her dog, but wont bother with hip scores because she wont put her dog under for hip scoring. She is being silly because you can find vets that sedate only, and if her bitch has to have a c section then it will have a GA so she should hip score her bitch. I also read I’m not a breeder so I haven’t done the health tests. Yet bred the dog, so if you have just 1 litter lets make it clear you are a breeder. Stop skirting around words so you do not get yourself a license, and you must submit a tax return. Another lady bred her frenchie and was selling them on social media, but not a single health test done. But charging 5000 a puppy. That price is higher than someone who is doing it right and health testing.
Remember health tests are a tool for the breeder.
CO EFFICIENCY
What is COI? It is an abbreviation for the word Co efficiency. Which basically means how in bred is your dog. Now we have a current trend mostly in Hungarian Vizsla that breeders are using the word COI as a sales point of view. These are usually from very inexperienced breeders. If you want the lowest coi then go and buy a poodle crossed a cocker spaniel. Because all pedigree dogs will come from the same relatives. It is what creates a pedigree dog, its type, its size, its head shape, its colour. It doesn't however mean you will have a healthier dog. This is wrongly being promoted to state your dog wont have any health conditions. UTTER RUBBISH! You can put two healthy dogs together having the lowest coi, but they can in fact me more unhealthy than a line bred litter. Why is this? You have dog A, which is not related to dog B. Both dog A and dog B both carry epilepsy, or auto immune, or hip dysplasia. You've just put dog A to dog B and those genes decided to come together in the creation of puppy C and hey presto an unhealthy dog. Dogs have upon thousands of genes in their make up. It is just what comes together for the creation of that puppy.
in all the years ive outcrossed, ive seen more health issues appear for no reason, than when we line bred. Two healthy line bred individuals will not produce health problems. It is safer to breed those than the dogs with a lower COI.
The old saying used to be before all these DNA tests and so on. Out cross the once, then go back into your line again, other wise you will lose type of the pedigree dog your trying to create. As you end up with Great Dane sized Vizsla, and tiny Vizsla all in one litter.
Defra have concluded that a dog is safe to breed up to 11.5 % coi.
The Kennel club have concluded that you can still register pups up to 20 coi. Even though they are the ones who have put online the breed average COI for each breed. They will register high coi no problem. I would never suggest anyone in bred a litter, unless an absolute mistake and they didn't want an abortion of the litter. I have come across breeders who are anti abortion and if they feel that strongly then that entirely up to them. But no-one these days sets out to breed mother and son together.
To throw another spanner in the works, on record with the kennel club the coi is not accurate at all, and when you import a dog they do not hold the names on the database and their coi is incorrect.
I am little unsure at the moment why this is being used as a sales pitch. The public who do not understand a word of it, then ring up breeders asking for coi of 1%. I suppose its a clever sales pitch to make it seem you have something more special than another breeder. Pedigree dogs all come from the same bloodlines originally, yes other breeds were added to give diversity, but they created in essence our pedigree dogs. In many breeds of dogs in the UK their is not enough of a gene pool to keep outcrossing. You can import dogs but heck........you can end up with something far worse that you never had in your blood lines in the first place.
The one thing I have learnt in the UK is actually we have small gene pools for many dog breeds. Even if we choose dogs from Europe we still have a small gene pool. The world is a smaller place these days where dog breeds are concerned as we have options to import. But it still doesn't get away from the fact that all pedigree dogs come from the same parents initially.
I would suggest everything should be with in balance.